Lois the Ghost and Evidence of an Afterlife. Parapsychologist Loyd Auerbach. Part 1: Episode 13
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Parapsychologist Loyd Auerbach answers if he always thought there was an afterlife or paranormal abilities or did the evidence he experienced change his mind. Which parapsychologists has he been most happy to meet? What are some of the psi experiments he has witnessed or participated in. He shares some of the best evidence of an afterlife he has ever seen, such as a family who was “haunted” by Lois the Ghost. He also shares about a time he had an OBE (out of body experience), and how shocked he was when it was verified by other people, that yes, he really was out of body. He discusses psychics that have actually worked with the police and FBI (although the don’t publicly admit it) to solve crimes and why skeptics often dismiss strong evidence of an afterlife.
Parapsychologist, mentalist and author Loyd Auerbach speaks with Liz and Darren McEnaney of Seeking I. Loyd Auerbach has a master’s degree in parapsychology, is president of the Forever Family Foundation, is Vice President and on the board of Directors, at the Rhine Research Center and is one of the principal instructors for the Rhine Education Center. He has been in the field of parapsychology for over 42 years. He is also the author and co-author of many books on the paranormal. He is also a mentalist, psychic entertainer and former magician. He is also an occasional chocolatier.
Darren McEnaney is host of the podcast Seeking I. Like Liz, he takes a logical and science-minded approach to the evidence of an afterlife. He refers to himself as “ “a lay researcher of consciousness focused on anomalous experience and life beyond physical death.”
Did Loyd Auerbach always think there is an afterlife or paranormal abilities?
Loyd originally got into parapsychology before his graduate studies. When he was a little kid he was heavily influenced by certain TV shows, comic books, and science fiction. He first heard the word “parapsychology” on the the TV show Dark Shadows and the superman comics. He later discovered science books on Parapsychology when he was pre-teen. He was into astronomy and geology and also discovered books by JB Rhine and JG Pratt, and other paranormal scientists who put him on the path he is on today. But he never had any problem accepting that psychic abilities could be real. He even was part of a parapsychology club in his high school.
Liz thinks he was very lucky to have had a club like that in high school and to have been exposed to the science of parapsychology so young.
In college he also was lucky that his anthropology field offered courses that looked at supernatural beliefs around the world. Also his professor who became his advisor, had The Journal Parapsychology on his shelves.
Parapsychologists, ESP, and PK (Psychokineses)
Loyd shares that of all the parapsychologists, he was most excited to meet was Hans Holzer. But he also had amazing discussions with Montague Ullman and Gertrude Schmeidler.
In Loyd’s high school parapsychology group they did not do ghost hunting but they did do ESP experiments and a few PK (psychokinesis) experiments, which were their main focus. Some of the PK experiments were done on an old school computer. Another was done with cards. Another was somewhat based on an old British TV show called UFO by Gerry Anderson where fighter pilots had to shoot down aliens. These games used mainly precognition.
And did people score well? Did they demonstrate if they had precognitive (ability to predict the future) abilities or ESP abilities?
What made Loyd Auerbach pursue a career in parapsychology?
Loyd thought it was something that seemed to be a mystery that that we need to study in science. One thing he had always gotten out of comic books and science fiction is that the potential for human beings is untapped. We have potential in many different areas. And we settle instead of actually exploring that potential. Loyd doesn’t know exactly why, but if you look at how PSI (parapsychology and paranormal) is viewed around the world in different cultures, there are cultural issues around what makes sense for that culture at that time and what does not. Also in religion, there are different perceptions of psi. Loyd has a friend who is a skilled psychic medium, but she used to be in a fundamentalist religious culture. This religious group used her abilities to their advantage. Overall, the fundamentalist religious group considered psychic medium abilities “satanic,” but they were okay with her using them, when it benefitted the group. And we see this around the world. In general, if somebody is doing something that fits in the right context, then it's okay.
Can anyone have psychic or mediumship abilities?
We as a society also perceive and treat people with psychic abilities as special. We then don’t acknowledge or realize that everyone can have the potential for these abilities. In fact JB Rhine shifted from only studying the people who seemingly had special abilities and excelled in this area, to looking at the idea that everybody has some psychic ability, and whether or not everyone can do the same thing. In human nature in general there are people who like to explore whether it's physical exploration or mental exploration. And there are people who just like things in a definite way, they want to know that this is how things are and they don’t question anything.
Darren shares that in his university psychology class, they recently studied Stanley Milgram, who conducted many studies on how authority figures influence our behavior. You also see online how many people can sway one’s opinion and have them stop questioning. Darren has noticed this with many skeptics and debunkers.
Skeptics vs Pseudo Skeptics.
Loyd explains that there are real skeptics and then there are pseudo skeptics. He recently finished teaching a class at The Rhine with a genuine skeptic Kenny Biddle. A majority of the well-known skeptics use the word skeptic, but are really just disbelieves. They're not any different than the true believers that accept everything.
Darren recently spoke with a skeptic Dr. Chris French. He seemed to be a genuine skeptic. What does Loyd think?
Loyd explains that Dr. Chris French finally admitted that Parapsychology is a science. He has been involved in parapsychology for a long time and has been persistently skeptical. He is looking with new eyes at what the research on psi actually is. Because if psi doesn’t exist there's something else going on. And if there's something else going on, we need to know what that is. Most of the people doing this research are parapsychologists, and in a niche. It would be nice to have more people looking at the data and seeing if they are right or wrong.
Have skeptics changed their mind about Parapsychology after examining the evidence of psi and an afterlife?
Ed May brought some people who were “kicking and screaming” on board for researching and writing for his and Sonali Bhatt Marwaha’s “Extrasensory Perception [2 volumes]: Support, Skepticism, and Science.” It is pretty amazing that he got people in different fields to look at the parapsychology research and admit that something seemed to be going on. They might not have all agreed on the same conclusions, but they did admit something seemed to be going on. So many skeptics make the assumption that there is nothing to the research and they dismiss it as bad research. But Ed May got them to look at it.
Loyd discusses Ed May’s take on how he thinks psychokinesis and ESP could work, since Ed is a materialist and does not think we are more than a brain and body. But Ed May is fascinated by the evidence of life after death and is looking into it. Loyd discusses which research seems to fascinate Ed May the most.
Ray Hyman had been convinced by Chuck Honorton and his Ganzfeld research and experiments. Ray Hyman could not deny something was going on that was inexplicable.
Liz shares that even Carl Sagan admitted that the research of kids with past life memories was worthy of further investigation. Loyd adds that he also said ESP was worthy of further investigation too.
Past life memories: Dr. Jim Tucker and the James Leininger case.
Darren brings up that the cases on kids with past life memories are really strong for example the Marty Martyn case.
Loyd mentions how philosopher Michael Sudduth recently wrote a paper for the Journal of scientific exploration where he will be disputing Dr. Jim Tucker’s research on his most famous case of kids with past life memories (child psychiatrist who studies cases of kids with past life memories) , the James Leininger case. Loyd shares his thoughts on if this rebuttal by Michael Suduth changes his view of the case and the validity of Dr. Jim Tucker’s research on it or not.
Peer Review and Science of Parapsychology:
Darren shares that this is why peer review is so important. Loyd explains that peer review and replication still have their limits. In the social sciences, such as psychology, replication doesn't work the same way it does in physics, and chemistry - in the physical sciences. Since the social sciences involve humans, replication doesn’t work very well. He shares an example of a time that replication didn’t work even in chemistry and why. This example is why even traditional science, not just parapsychology and social sciences have a problem with replication. The decline effect, that over time the effect doesn’t work as well also seems to be a problem with replicability. Another issue with replication is what is called the “sheep-goat effect.” This means that people’s belief in psi seems to impact the results of the studies, even under strict controls. Loyd shares some of the results based on the sheep goat effect that he finds really fascinating and inexplicable such as it is not only the experimenters belief that seems to affect the results, but also the participants. This is something that people should be studying.
Why haven’t the skeptics studied the sheep goat effect more?
Loyd discusses some of his thoughts on why this is, and some of the beliefs of the “pseudo-skeptics.” They clearly still have an interest if they keep discussing parapsychology, even if the pseudo-skeptics don’t agree with it. Loyd does tell them they should examine the sheep goat effect, but they claim they do not have time to do so. However, they do put a lot of time into discussing Parapsychology and stating it doesn’t exist. However, they refuse to study this. Lis notices that often pseudo-skeptics overall argument is “ it's not true, because it's not true.” They do not go further than that, and then many of their arguments, when they give them, have already been addressed in the study by the parapsychologist. The pseudo-skeptics also openly state that of course they never read the study done by the parapsychologist.
Skeptics don’t look at the evidence in parapsychology
Loyd says that in an article in the Skeptical Inquirer by Arthur S. Reber, James E. Alcock titles “Why Parapsychological Claims Cannot Be True,” they state that ESP and Psi violate the laws of physics. However, they start the article by admitting that they didn’t read any of the research. Another skeptic then debunked this article saying that these two didn’t know anything about physics, although he himself does not believe in ESP, he still thought their arguments were not valid.
If there is an afterlife, why do the best scientists dismiss the research?
This bothers Liz still. She is not so worried about the skeptics dismissing the research, but why do the top scientist, when, if this were all true, this would be the biggest discovery in the world. This would be significantly more amazing than CERN and the large hydrogen collider.
Loyd says that while this is bigger than CERN for people, it is not bigger than CERN for science. Also a particle scientist, for example, might have no interest in String Theory for example. Also, when Loyd was starting out as a parapsychologist and doing his research at Lawrence Berkeley Lab, some of the researchers would tell him parapsychology was not a science. He would ask them “ is psychology a science?”. If they were physicists, they said no. So they would dismiss all social sciences as a science. Loyd has never understood the dismissal of something being science or not. Because the definition of science is the process of discovering the ways that nature works.
What is the most mind blowing thing Loyd has seen studying parapsychology?
That is hard because there are things that Loyd takes in stride or just thinks are cool and when he tells them to other people, then they are amazed.
Lois the Ghost: a young boy and a highly evidential story of a ghost
He does end up sharing an absolutely mind-blowing story about a case he researched when he was working at the American Society for Psychical Research wheee a young boy was communicating with, and had essentially become friends with this ghost. Not only was this story fascinating, it was highly evidential.
Loyd considers it one of the best “ghost stories” and it was written about in New York Times Journalist Leslie Kean’s book, Surviving Death.
Are some people better able to see ghosts? Or are some ghosts better at being seen?
Loyd thinks that not everyone can sense or perceive ghosts and apparitions. But that is not always the whole picture. We are probably all a little bit psychic.
Psychics Solving Crimes
Loyd also had an amazing OBE - Out of Body experience. He even got really solid evidence that it was true. He really was out of body. During his first job in Parapsychology he worked at the American Society for Psychical Research. During this job, he spent a lot of time watching the research parapsychologists Donna McCormick and Karlis Osis were doing on psychic medium Alex Tanous. Alex Tanous had a huge impact on Loyd, and he was such a skilled psychic medium that every time Alex came down to the American Society for Psychical Research, somebody from the FBI, New York Police Department, Boston PD, or some other police department would show up to consult with him on some case. But that was of course kept secret.
Loyd once told Alex, that he himself had never had any psychic medium or any paranormal experiences. Alex replied, “Stick with me, kid, you'll have plenty of experiences.”
So shortly after this, Loyd, much to his amazement, had an out of body experience during a dream. During it he visited a psychic he was friends with, and her family. He of course, dismissed this as a dream, but later got verification that this was real. He truly was out of body and had visited this psychic. Then this happened a second time, and once again Loyd got verification.
When Loyd told Alex Tanous, he replied “You’re gonna have more.” And explained to Loyd why he thought this was happening to him.
Notes and Resources:
(American) Society for Psychical Research - ASPR
Quote by Carl Sagan his book Demon-Haunted World: “… there are three claims in the ESP field which, in my opinion, deserve serious study: (1) that by thought alone humans can (barely) affect random number generators in computers; (2) that people under mild sensory deprivation can receive thoughts or images “projected” at them; and (3) that young children sometimes report the details of a previous life, which upon checking turn out to be accurate and which they could not have known about in any way other than reincarnation.”
Haunted by Chocolate - Loyd’s Chocolates
Journal of Scientific Exploration
The Library at Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory
Michael Sudduth on Dr. Jim Tucker’s Case